"The sister kept stopping to help her little brother, who was too young to keep going, and the two were soon left far behind. She led him to a thicket and, making him a bed of boughs, left him there to rest while she cut brush and built a small shelter. From then on they lived in this shelter, eating berries and roots gathered by the child-mother. Many summers passed. The children grew older... ...His eyes were cast downward, because he was now old enough to feel ashamed of living alone with his sister, and without looking up he replied, 'Sister, it will do us no good if I look at them'" (697).
Why would the boy feel ashamed to have been living alone with his sister? In humor, someone helped me brainstorm the idea and suggested that maybe this was an issue of incest and the boy was ashamed of having a relationship with his sister over the many years which have passed. Although it may be plausible, the idea seems too unacceptable in my mind that forces me to discard it.
Furthermore, I do not know a great deal of information about Native American culture, but the shame seems to play directly into stereotypical gender roles as we know them and the inability of the boy to care for not only his sister, but more importantly for himself. He cannot build a shelter for them. He cannot gather food for them. He cannot even look at his surroundings--at their new settlement. He only possesses the power of making everything around him lifeless.
I find it important that the tale mentions that he was ashamed when he was old enough to realize what had transpired. It's as if he was able to learn the societal gender roles that exist. Nevertheless, as a young child who could not keep up, the boy was fine with his sister caring for him. But the older boy had to rely on a sister, rather than a brother. Similarly, age plays a role because if their parents were around the onus of care would be upon them and the burden of his shame would not have existed. The shame carries with the boy throughout the tale because even in the end he maintains his head down and only possesses the power of death. The giving of life was in the matriarchal character--the sister.
I agree on simply rejecting the idea of incest between the boy and his sister. I think that perhaps it is the "ignorance" which still remains for me in these Folktales.
As a child, one never over analyzes anything in a story. However, as we get older, we start to understand that certain things just cannot be which causes us to pick the story apart and criticize it from the adult point of view. Similarly, as it was mentioned by William that the boy did not mind that his sister was caring for him when he was young but as he got older he started to feel ashamed. The mind changes from youth to adulthood in many ways and one of the most important aspects is that one starts to perceive certain things which may not be in the “norm”.
I feel that during childhood the “normal” does not apply. When reading “Jack and the Beanstalk” and “Tom Thumb”, I still try not to diverge too much into the adult sense of the story but instead to just read it and take it for what it is. Of course, that is on some level difficult. However, I feel that if I do not try to keep these Folktales as they were during my childhood, I will start loosing a sense of my self, or at least who I was as a child.
I found the tale of the desreted children a bit odd.The fact that the only power the boy had was to kill things by just looking at them, may confuse a young audience, as to why does the boy posess this power? I have no answer for that. The fact that the girl skinned teh animals and did all the other chores, may suggest she si a matriarch. After all, only females can give birth. This tale seems the opposite of Hansel and Gretel, where they both continually help each other throughout the tale. Whereas in this tale, the boy doe not do much at all. Lastly, Iam not sure if this tale has an issue of incest, I think there are many parts missing in the story, since we do not know much about Native American culture.
I think Will made a very interesting point in saying that the boy's shame arises from his own inability to fulfill the role of a man. In class it was mentioned that in Native American societies, women are seen as powerful and wise. If this is true, then the boy has no reason to feel ashamed - his sister is not forced to do a "man's job" - rather, she is correctly fulfilling her own role. I propose a slight change to Will's idea - perhaps the boy's shame does not only arise from his present circumstances (his current dependence on his sister), but also from the knowledge that he is the reason his sister has no parents. After all, she was old enough to keep up with their parents, and she could have left him behind to die. She didn't, though - she chose to assume the role of mother before her time, and maybe seeing this burden shouldered by one so young makes the boy feel guilty.
I agree with Will and the others that believe that the boy's shame has to do with his own issues of manhood. Additionally,I believe that some of his shame comes from his sister forcing him to use his power. In a way it seems that he does not want to use his power or that he is afraid of his ability. At any rate, the sister seems very comfortable using her powers and forcing her brother to use his. (I do not know if there are any HEROES fans out there but this story reminded me of the episodes of the brother and sister where the sister had the power to kill people by looking at them and the brother had the ability to absorb her power to prevent her from causing harm. As I re-read this tale, it reminded of these characters). It is as if the siblings abilities arise out of a need for them to take care of each other, and maybe that is where some of his shame comes from because he (probably) realizes that they will not be separated and he will always have to be the one causing harm.
The story of the deserted kids is very strange, let me rephrase that. This isn't what i expected when i dive into a book which is suppose to be a fairy tale for kids but i have on occasion had to remind myself in this class that most of the fairy tales we read for class aren't all based on the American ideology of children and innocence. This particular piece definitely takes the cake and i believe i made sense of this story only because i have a slightly higher insight than a third grader would. i can't imagine reading this particular story as a bedtime story to a kid who still believes in the tooth fairy, what possible lesson would he/she take away from this murderous tale? As an adult(oh men) on the other hand this story makes more sense to me, i don't believe this story is really about expressing the finer points of revenge or telling kids if you are wronged hard enough karma will endow you with awesome powers. I believe the main message from the story is as simple as warning us about the importance of our future; more importantly the care that should be taken to imprint the correct message and values on our legacies. The act of the parents and the village being wipe from existence by the boy and girl should be accepted as nothing more than passing of the touch to the next in line. The fact that the children got to pick which few get to live also indicates the power that goes along with owing the future. I like to look at the two kids as parallels of the Adam and Eve depicted in the bible, this story was probably an oral tradition passed down among the Gros Ventre tribe of how their people came into existence. I was suppose to look into that but i could not find anything pertaining to it.
My outlook on “The Deserted Children” I would say that it is mostly about how important it is to help your family and take care of them. The parents abandoned their children… so the sister had to take care of her brother…and because they took care of each other, things turned out well for them at the end. But, the parents ended up with nothing because they left their children. Their daughter certainly wasn’t going to help them, since they didn’t help her when she needed it. Moral: There are consequences for the bad things people do. The brother might have felt shame because he didn’t agree with everything his sister wanted him to do. Maybe he didn’t like when she told him to look at people and kill them, and he felt badly about it later. I also believe the shame comes from the breaking of traditional gender roles. Traditional gender roles would mean the brother taking care of the sister. And in this folktale, the roles are reversed. So perhaps when the brother realizes he could not do what society expects of him, maybe then he feels shame. Once he was older, he realized how much of a burden he was. Society expects him to be a provider, as he grew older he became more embarrassed and ashamed because of his inability to provide. I did think it was odd that the boy could kill things just by looking at them. I like Krishna Sury’s response, I think what she is trying to say is that the boy might be ashamed because he can’t fulfill the roles a man normally would; all he can do really is kill people. I also like Michelle’s response: what Michelle says about the sister getting the brother to use his powers, even when he doesn’t want to. I think what Michelle is saying is that their powers work when they are together, and they will always need to be together to take care of each other, so maybe he feels guilty that he won’t ever be able to get out of that cycle. In Hansel and Gretel, the two of them take care of each other reciprocally, whereas in this tale, it seems as though the brother does nothing for the sister. I like how Michelle brought up the idea that the sister feels comfortable using his powers, but perhaps his brother does not. She goes on to say that perhaps he feels shame because he realizes he will always be the one that needs to be taken care of. He does not do anything to further their safety in the folktale; his sister does everything for the both of them. Why wasn’t it ever mentioned how they got the power? However further down, Marclaaq says this is a parallel to the Adam and Eve story. It might be a folktale that tries to explain how their tribe began; the brother and the sister are the first of their tribe. And as a result of being a myth in their culture, they were awarded powers. I think it does make sense and for an interesting parallel. It is a parallel because Adam and Eve were the first people and how this brother and sister pair could reflect that, maybe their fall from innocence could reflect how the brother and sister were forced to kill to make their own survival. Good folktale to read to a child: in my opinion, “The Deserted Children” is not a good folktale to read to a child because there is a bit of violence and the aspect of leaving behind children is not really acceptable in our culture. However, it’s important to remember that they could have a different culture in which this wouldn’t be frowned upon. Do you agree that in our American culture it would be frowned upon if a city of people suddenly left their children all there and moved away? That’s basically what happened in this story, the parents moved away and abandoned their kids. We look at that as extremely morally wrong. However, in Native American culture, this might not have been the case. They might value independence more than we do, and therefore find it okay to leave their kids to fend for themselves at a certain age. We have to realize Different cultures have different beliefs. Here is an archive of folktales about abandoned children: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0327.html Since it is a Native American folktale, I would agree that incest would not be a factor in it. However, it is possible because the sister is the only FEMALE nurturing figure in his life. Adam and Eve analogy: Adam and Eve were the 1st humans on earth and they were tempted to eat the fruit. Maybe their fall from innocence could reflect how the brother and sister were forced to kill to make their own survival. In this folktale, children’s independence (especially women’s was emphasized. Popular stories that were turned into Disney movies such as Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast, Sleeping Beauty, teach young girls that they should be dependent. The sister is portrayed in this folktale-independent; there is a big difference between how women are portrayed.
On reading The Deserted Children, the first thing that popped out at me was Professor Natov's telling us that many of these stories originally started out as adult stories that circulated in bars...it is really hard for me to imagine anyone thinking any part of this tale, neither the plot nor the message, is child-appropriate. The story Hansel and Gretel actually serves well to depict how a story of abandoned children would ideally play out for in a kid's mind...in this version, the children don't lose all innocence but manage to pull things together just enough that they can return to their father's protective abode. I once read in a book by Dr. Abraham Twerski that children of abuse tend have an easier time determining that they are bad than faulting the parent for abuse, because it is safer for them to judge themselves as incompetent than to lose the notion of security that deifying their parents provides them. (I believe this concept may have also been mentioned in class.) When a child finally accepts the faults of his parents, he may be stronger for it but he loses a great deal of naivity and innocence. He can no longer completely rely on his parents for security, and perhaps he cannot rely on anything or anyone. He is aware that there is evil or sadness in the world. While Hansel and Gretel invest a good deal in attaining their salvation, they never fault their dad for abandoning them; they do not ultimately view themselves as independent of their father. This story caters to children because a young child would likely not be content with a story in which the child never returns to his parents in the end. Ultimately, the children go back to their protective father; they remain children to the end. In the deserted children, the children accept a harsh reality. They acknowledge that their parents have failed in their role and they even fault them for it. The boy has lost his innocence; he is aware of evil in the world. This knowledge combined with the bitterness of his premature maturity causes him to unleash it on the people around him. This story appeals more to the serious or morbid child or adult who would appreciate the concept of losing one's youth. The deserted children ultimately reach a level of maturity that Hansel and Gretel never achieve.
The Deserted Children - The Boy's Shame
ReplyDelete"The sister kept stopping to help her little brother, who was too young to keep going, and the two were soon left far behind. She led him to a thicket and, making him a bed of boughs, left him there to rest while she cut brush and built a small shelter. From then on they lived in this shelter, eating berries and roots gathered by the child-mother. Many summers passed. The children grew older...
...His eyes were cast downward, because he was now old enough to feel ashamed of living alone with his sister, and without looking up he replied, 'Sister, it will do us no good if I look at them'" (697).
Why would the boy feel ashamed to have been living alone with his sister? In humor, someone helped me brainstorm the idea and suggested that maybe this was an issue of incest and the boy was ashamed of having a relationship with his sister over the many years which have passed. Although it may be plausible, the idea seems too unacceptable in my mind that forces me to discard it.
Furthermore, I do not know a great deal of information about Native American culture, but the shame seems to play directly into stereotypical gender roles as we know them and the inability of the boy to care for not only his sister, but more importantly for himself. He cannot build a shelter for them. He cannot gather food for them. He cannot even look at his surroundings--at their new settlement. He only possesses the power of making everything around him lifeless.
I find it important that the tale mentions that he was ashamed when he was old enough to realize what had transpired. It's as if he was able to learn the societal gender roles that exist. Nevertheless, as a young child who could not keep up, the boy was fine with his sister caring for him. But the older boy had to rely on a sister, rather than a brother. Similarly, age plays a role because if their parents were around the onus of care would be upon them and the burden of his shame would not have existed. The shame carries with the boy throughout the tale because even in the end he maintains his head down and only possesses the power of death. The giving of life was in the matriarchal character--the sister.
I agree on simply rejecting the idea of incest between the boy and his sister. I think that perhaps it is the "ignorance" which still remains for me in these Folktales.
ReplyDeleteAs a child, one never over analyzes anything in a story. However, as we get older, we start to understand that certain things just cannot be which causes us to pick the story apart and criticize it from the adult point of view. Similarly, as it was mentioned by William that the boy did not mind that his sister was caring for him when he was young but as he got older he started to feel ashamed. The mind changes from youth to adulthood in many ways and one of the most important aspects is that one starts to perceive certain things which may not be in the “norm”.
I feel that during childhood the “normal” does not apply. When reading “Jack and the Beanstalk” and “Tom Thumb”, I still try not to diverge too much into the adult sense of the story but instead to just read it and take it for what it is. Of course, that is on some level difficult. However, I feel that if I do not try to keep these Folktales as they were during my childhood, I will start loosing a sense of my self, or at least who I was as a child.
I found the tale of the desreted children a bit odd.The fact that the only power the boy had was to kill things by just looking at them, may confuse a young audience, as to why does the boy posess this power? I have no answer for that.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that the girl skinned teh animals and did all the other chores, may suggest she si a matriarch. After all, only females can give birth.
This tale seems the opposite of Hansel and Gretel, where they both continually help each other throughout the tale. Whereas in this tale, the boy doe not do much at all.
Lastly, Iam not sure if this tale has an issue of incest, I think there are many parts missing in the story, since we do not know much about Native American culture.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI think Will made a very interesting point in saying that the boy's shame arises from his own inability to fulfill the role of a man. In class it was mentioned that in Native American societies, women are seen as powerful and wise. If this is true, then the boy has no reason to feel ashamed - his sister is not forced to do a "man's job" - rather, she is correctly fulfilling her own role. I propose a slight change to Will's idea - perhaps the boy's shame does not only arise from his present circumstances (his current dependence on his sister), but also from the knowledge that he is the reason his sister has no parents. After all, she was old enough to keep up with their parents, and she could have left him behind to die. She didn't, though - she chose to assume the role of mother before her time, and maybe seeing this burden shouldered by one so young makes the boy feel guilty.
ReplyDeleteI like Krishna's interpretation following the fact that women were seen as the "stronger" gender in Native American culture.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Will and the others that believe that the boy's shame has to do with his own issues of manhood. Additionally,I believe that some of his shame comes from his sister forcing him to use his power. In a way it seems that he does not want to use his power or that he is afraid of his ability. At any rate, the sister seems very comfortable using her powers and forcing her brother to use his. (I do not know if there are any HEROES fans out there but this story reminded me of the episodes of the brother and sister where the sister had the power to kill people by looking at them and the brother had the ability to absorb her power to prevent her from causing harm. As I re-read this tale, it reminded of these characters). It is as if the siblings abilities arise out of a need for them to take care of each other, and maybe that is where some of his shame comes from because he (probably) realizes that they will not be separated and he will always have to be the one causing harm.
ReplyDeleteThe story of the deserted kids is very strange, let me rephrase that. This isn't what i expected when i dive into a book which is suppose to be a fairy tale for kids but i have on occasion had to remind myself in this class that most of the fairy tales we read for class aren't all based on the American ideology of children and innocence. This particular piece definitely takes the cake and i believe i made sense of this story only because i have a slightly higher insight than a third grader would. i can't imagine reading this particular story as a bedtime story to a kid who still believes in the tooth fairy, what possible lesson would he/she take away from this murderous tale? As an adult(oh men) on the other hand this story makes more sense to me, i don't believe this story is really about expressing the finer points of revenge or telling kids if you are wronged hard enough karma will endow you with awesome powers. I believe the main message from the story is as simple as warning us about the importance of our future; more importantly the care that should be taken to imprint the correct message and values on our legacies. The act of the parents and the village being wipe from existence by the boy and girl should be accepted as nothing more than passing of the touch to the next in line. The fact that the children got to pick which few get to live also indicates the power that goes along with owing the future. I like to look at the two kids as parallels of the Adam and Eve depicted in the bible, this story was probably an oral tradition passed down among the Gros Ventre tribe of how their people came into existence. I was suppose to look into that but i could not find anything pertaining to it.
ReplyDeleteMy outlook on “The Deserted Children” I would say that it is mostly about how important it is to help your family and take care of them. The parents abandoned their children… so the sister had to take care of her brother…and because they took care of each other, things turned out well for them at the end. But, the parents ended up with nothing because they left their children. Their daughter certainly wasn’t going to help them, since they didn’t help her when she needed it. Moral: There are consequences for the bad things people do. The brother might have felt shame because he didn’t agree with everything his sister wanted him to do. Maybe he didn’t like when she told him to look at people and kill them, and he felt badly about it later. I also believe the shame comes from the breaking of traditional gender roles. Traditional gender roles would mean the brother taking care of the sister. And in this folktale, the roles are reversed. So perhaps when the brother realizes he could not do what society expects of him, maybe then he feels shame. Once he was older, he realized how much of a burden he was. Society expects him to be a provider, as he grew older he became more embarrassed and ashamed because of his inability to provide. I did think it was odd that the boy could kill things just by looking at them. I like Krishna Sury’s response, I think what she is trying to say is that the boy might be ashamed because he can’t fulfill the roles a man normally would; all he can do really is kill people. I also like Michelle’s response: what Michelle says about the sister getting the brother to use his powers, even when he doesn’t want to. I think what Michelle is saying is that their powers work when they are together, and they will always need to be together to take care of each other, so maybe he feels guilty that he won’t ever be able to get out of that cycle. In Hansel and Gretel, the two of them take care of each other reciprocally, whereas in this tale, it seems as though the brother does nothing for the sister. I like how Michelle brought up the idea that the sister feels comfortable using his powers, but perhaps his brother does not. She goes on to say that perhaps he feels shame because he realizes he will always be the one that needs to be taken care of. He does not do anything to further their safety in the folktale; his sister does everything for the both of them. Why wasn’t it ever mentioned how they got the power? However further down, Marclaaq says this is a parallel to the Adam and Eve story. It might be a folktale that tries to explain how their tribe began; the brother and the sister are the first of their tribe. And as a result of being a myth in their culture, they were awarded powers. I think it does make sense and for an interesting parallel. It is a parallel because Adam and Eve were the first people and how this brother and sister pair could reflect that, maybe their fall from innocence could reflect how the brother and sister were forced to kill to make their own survival. Good folktale to read to a child: in my opinion, “The Deserted Children” is not a good folktale to read to a child because there is a bit of violence and the aspect of leaving behind children is not really acceptable in our culture. However, it’s important to remember that they could have a different culture in which this wouldn’t be frowned upon. Do you agree that in our American culture it would be frowned upon if a city of people suddenly left their children all there and moved away? That’s basically what happened in this story, the parents moved away and abandoned their kids. We look at that as extremely morally wrong. However, in Native American culture, this might not have been the case. They might value independence more than we do, and therefore find it okay to leave their kids to fend for themselves at a certain age. We have to realize Different cultures have different beliefs.
ReplyDeleteHere is an archive of folktales about abandoned children: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0327.html
Since it is a Native American folktale, I would agree that incest would not be a factor in it. However, it is possible because the sister is the only FEMALE nurturing figure in his life. Adam and Eve analogy: Adam and Eve were the 1st humans on earth and they were tempted to eat the fruit. Maybe their fall from innocence could reflect how the brother and sister were forced to kill to make their own survival. In this folktale, children’s independence (especially women’s was emphasized. Popular stories that were turned into Disney movies such as Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast, Sleeping Beauty, teach young girls that they should be dependent. The sister is portrayed in this folktale-independent; there is a big difference between how women are portrayed.
On reading The Deserted Children, the first thing that popped out at me was Professor Natov's telling us that many of these stories originally started out as adult stories that circulated in bars...it is really hard for me to imagine anyone thinking any part of this tale, neither the plot nor the message, is child-appropriate. The story Hansel and Gretel actually serves well to depict how a story of abandoned children would ideally play out for in a kid's mind...in this version, the children don't lose all innocence but manage to pull things together just enough that they can return to their father's protective abode. I once read in a book by Dr. Abraham Twerski that children of abuse tend have an easier time determining that they are bad than faulting the parent for abuse, because it is safer for them to judge themselves as incompetent than to lose the notion of security that deifying their parents provides them. (I believe this concept may have also been mentioned in class.) When a child finally accepts the faults of his parents, he may be stronger for it but he loses a great deal of naivity and innocence. He can no longer completely rely on his parents for security, and perhaps he cannot rely on anything or anyone. He is aware that there is evil or sadness in the world. While Hansel and Gretel invest a good deal in attaining their salvation, they never fault their dad for abandoning them; they do not ultimately view themselves as independent of their father. This story caters to children because a young child would likely not be content with a story in which the child never returns to his parents in the end. Ultimately, the children go back to their protective father; they remain children to the end. In the deserted children, the children accept a harsh reality. They acknowledge that their parents have failed in their role and they even fault them for it. The boy has lost his innocence; he is aware of evil in the world. This knowledge combined with the bitterness of his premature maturity causes him to unleash it on the people around him. This story appeals more to the serious or morbid child or adult who would appreciate the concept of losing one's youth. The deserted children ultimately reach a level of maturity that Hansel and Gretel never achieve.
ReplyDelete